Sup fellas, I am picking back up on this series by overlapping the last paragraph from the previous email. We will get into how to pray and all that jazz in future emails, but for now I still want to focus on some foundational understanding of prayer. I realize that what I am saying may seem a little foreign, but believe me if you can, as time goes on, along with the emails, it will start to become more clear, at least i hope........alright, let's rock
...........But then God did something wonderful and is shown a couple chapters later, He made a promise to the devil in Genesis 3:15. Paraphrased it says the woman that satan used to destroy humanity, God said she shall provide for Me(God) a physical body to enter the earth.
From Gen. 3:15 through the entire OT, a promise is seen of God Himself coming into the earth in a body so that he could be legal on the planet. Take a look in Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah says “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.” Now why does God need a body to enter earth? To protect himself from violating the Law. Because, and we go back to Gen. 1:26, only humans can have authority on earth. The coming of God in a body is to keep His own integrity. So, let’s understand this further. Later on in Isaiah Ch. 9 verse 6, Isaiah sees something else. He says “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
The child was born, the Son was given, and so the Son was not born. The child was the baby, the body; the Son was Christ; the God. So Mary birthed the child, but God gave the Son…….the body made the Son legal. So, Jesus is the body, Christ is the God. Jesus made Christ legal. Jesus made God legal on earth. Again, so the coming of God in a body was to keep His own integrity. As long as Jesus was on earth, God was legal!
Jesus could only do what He did on earth, not because He was the Son of God, but because He was the Son of Man. Let’s look into this further. John chapter 5 is a chapter that dealt with the healing by the pool. There was a man on a mat as we pick up in verse 6.
When Jesus saw him lying there and learned that he had been in this condition for a long time, he asked him, "Do you want to get well?" "Sir," the invalid replied, "I have no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred. While I am trying to get in, someone else goes down ahead of me." Then Jesus said to him, "Get up! Pick up your mat and walk." At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked. (NIV)
The Pharisees persecuted Jesus for performing these miracles, wondering where he got the power, wondering who gave Him authority to perform these works. What Jesus says is very important. Verse 19 through 20 says, Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these.” (NIV)
In other words, this man was healed already in the Heaven, but the miracle could not come to earth because there was no human to give permission for it to happen. So the Pharisees were asking, how did you heal this man? Jesus replied something like, “My Father healed him a long time ago, but the healing couldn’t get to earth." Because why? Exactly, humanly permission.
Now we go on in John to verses 21-22, Jesus says “For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son.” In other words, God in Heaven does not do anything on earth. He gave all the right for that to be done, by the Son. Why? Look at verse 27, Jesus says “And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.” (underlining mine)
Jesus said the reason why I (speaking of Himself) have authority on earth is not because I am the Son of God (that’s the Christ), but because I am the Son of Man (that’s the Jesus). If I didn’t have a body, I couldn’t do these miracles on earth. In other words, we are needed by God to get things out of Heaven on earth legally. That is why our bodies (and our prayers as you will see later on) are so important. With all the things Jesus did, He went on to say in John 14, “And greater works will you do”. So, He would later go to the Father, leave, become illegal, we on earth have the bodies, so nothing happens on earth without us allowing it to happen. THIS IS WHY PRAYER IS THE MOST POWERFUL ACTIVITY ON EARTH! So prayer is man giving God license to interfere with earth’s affairs. So maybe you can see now a little more clearly why Jesus said “when you pray” or when He said “pray without ceasing”. He knew what our prayers would mean for this earth. Prayers are needed to bring things of Heaven to earth!
I'll end with this. We need to ask God to intervene in human affairs; otherwise, our world will be susceptible to the influences of satan and sin. God will ultimately bring His purposes to pass in the world, with or without our cooperation. He will find someone who agrees with His plans, but when you neglect to pray, you fail to fulfill your role in His purposes. He does not want you to miss out on the privilege. James 4:2 says, "You do not have, because you do not ask God."
dying to myself,
-todd
11 comments:
I have to say that I'm very interested in these Power of Prayer posts but at the same time curious. I'm having some trouble grasping the concept of God not being able to intervene here on earth without humans. So I'm going to ask a couple of questions which is what I have always done when faced with new info.
1. Jesus and Christ seem to be presented as two different entities sharing a body. Am I misinterpreting that? If not, then who died on the cross? Jesus or the Christ or both?
2. All through the OT, God intervenes here on earth without a human body (burning bush, cloud of fire, ark of the covenant) so how do these come into play?
Just wanted to clear this up some more for me because I'm having a really hard time with this limited power of God here on earth even though solid points have been made supporting it. Thanks.
-TEvans
OK,
Where to start. First off, I know that Todd prefaced this by saying that many of these quotes were from an author that he likes. I think we need to keep that in mind as we follow this. I did this all the time with MacArthur readings. You get so excited over a new interpretation of a message that we might forget to dive back in the Word and cross reference it. Remember that we need to look to the bible for truth and then work backwards from there.
I am having a hard time with the idea of God with a hands off approach on earth and that we are semi fending for ourselves. That is teetering on Deism. I think the concept that we are seperated from God due to our sin needs to be peppered in a little more, because the reason that we have the seperation from God is due to our sin. I would also like to see peoples thoughts on the intervening of God through miracles that are written about in Exodus or just everyday miracls that we see everyday and what the view is on that. Also, the holy spirit hasn't been mentioned much in here. I would like to see people's thoughts on that role in the trinity and the whole Jesus being a man and the legal side of that. Again, there are some big concepts that are being thrown around here and I think everybody should reference the Truth on this one and look at all the scrips mentioned through out. My bible is saying a little something different on some of these references.
popcorn......Blake? Jules? Nolan? Durham?
Ok my brothers, i read back over my writings, and i myself was confused, ill totally own up to it, and i promise i will clarify my words, just give me a bit to get my thoughts together, and ill get you what i meant to say
no problem Todd. Love your enthusiasm and you made many great points. There were just a few things here and there that confused me and you as well I guess. Look forward to the regroup.
TEvans
Okay my brothers, here are some answers to my confusing statements from previous emails. I did indeed take some of it too far, and I will own up to that, my bad. But, I do believe some things I've said will make for great discussions and cause us to go back again and again to the Word. It prods at deep theological thinking, but a solid foundation is dire in order for proper prayer. So, as I present some ideas and beliefs, we can all combine to decipher, learn, and grow. Though I am speaking from a book I have read, it was not a "book high". I had read this book 2 years ago, and had since read through it again. I thought it had some solid points worth mentioning about prayer. I do not claim to believe all that Myles Munroe teaches. Much of it is just "brain exercises", but he does have some great points on Kingdom thinking, relieving us from thinking "religiously".
To correct my previous ignorant statement, I do not think it is illegal for God to visit the earth. After all, He is God: all knowing, all powerful, and everywhere present. The Word says He can do as He pleases. Out of God's great love for us, He made man a little lower than the angels to have dominion over the earth. He gave man authority over the earth, to govern the earth and it's affairs. God is the King (who owns it all), giving one of his subjects the authority to govern a portion (colony) of his Kingdom, the earth. Man has been given the authority to govern, but not ownership! Therefore, God owns it ALL ! He should be able to visit the earth anytime, any place, and in any way. (i.e. burning bush, fiery furnace, cloud of fire). God simply chooses to work through man because He has given man freewill.
I think the statement about it being illegal for a spirit to be on the earth without a body is possible, but I'm truly not sold on it. Even if it is true, God would be obviously exclusive of this law (i was just blinded for some reason on this). He, after all, is God. Also, angels are spirits, too. The word says that angels encamp around us. It says He has given His angels charge over us. So, I think this would be good to discuss fellas. In a way, it does kind of make sense, that created spirits would be illegal without a body or permission, but there are definitely arguments against it.
On the matter of the cross, who died there - Jesus or Christ? Jesus was fully God (Christ) and fully man (Jesus). Jesus came to pay our sin debt. He was our atoning sacrifice. "Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin". Therefore, I believe Jesus (body) died on the cross and shed His blood in our behalf. I believe Christ (Spirit) did not die on the cross. How can God die? No shot! Just as He could not be born, remember "the Son was given"( pre-existent), He can not die (eternal). It can be hard to wrap our minds around these deep subjects. God is, indeed, mysterious. His ways are above our ways. His thoughts are above our thoughts. The Word says will never fully understand His ways. But, I think God loves it and is pumped that we are searching and diving in more and more to learn more of His ways. Thank you for those who called me out and questioned me. I like what this group brings, keep bringing it.
dying to myself,
-todd
Ok here's my take. I do NOT want to hurt any feelings, but I think this needs to be said.
As was stated, "we can never understand"... If this is true, then we must look at what we have been given (the Authoritative Word of GOD) and take what is said in there as this is what you need to know.
Sometimes we look at the "we can never understand" stuff and think that that means let's try to make sense of it. So...we take something, put a human spin on it and to try to understand the un-understandable.
Do you really think that God meant for us to break down the "Trinity" into such a basic level that mortal humans would be able to completely understand?? This would be like asking an ant to explain the internet...it's futile. Just like we, on this side of eternity, aren't going to be able to exactly understand how God the father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are separate yet one...we aren't going to be able to comprehend how the Son, Christ Jesus (or Jesus Christ) is fully God, fully human, and fully died. God can't die...or else He's not God...or can He??? He makes the decisions doesn't He...He makes all the rules.
What is written clearly in scripture is that Jesus DIED...Jesus is/was/still is GOD...and He fully died. When we take away from scripture for ANY reason we run into trouble...or when we add to it. Isn't that what the serpent did in the garden of eden??
Genesis 2:17 tells how God commanded not to eat of the tree. Then in 3:3 Eve makes the first subtle mistake of scripture when she tells the serpent that they were commanded not to touch it also. God didn't say not to touch it...He said not to EAT the fruit. She added to God's word and satan used that as a foothold to cast doubt into the rest of what God said.
It may not seem like much, but if God wanted us to know that Jesus died and Christ lived or whatever that junk is...HE WOULD HAVE TOLD US.
I think God is pumped when we seek to know Him more...we do that by reading and studying the scriptures He's given us. They are sufficeint just like they are or else He's not God because He couldn't communicate well. So let's get to know God more by what's clearly written in scripture.
I think Satan is pumped when we distract ourselves from studying what IS in scripture by talking about and debating something that ISN'T in scripture.
I could see Screwtape congratulating Wormwood on a job well done after these posts.
Nolan, well said and i agree that the Trinity is not intended for our comprehension. Todd, I just want to let you know that your enthusiasm for seeking God's truth is exactly what this group needs. Your unique ability to share your insight with such a perfect combination of boldness and humility is truly a gift from our Father in heaven. It can be a tough and dangerous thing when we get deep theologically but informative as well if we humbly look to God's Word for the answers to challenging topics. You're a impact player in this group and I look toward to more insight from you.
Tevans
In no way are any feelings being hurt here, we are all learning through the discussions. With that said, I believe it is just as important to know what God didn't say, in relation to what He said. It is my belief that if something was not born, then how can it die? As the Word states, "the Son was given". The spirit, the Christ, the God part of Jesus was given, not born, so how could it die?
I went back to John 19 to read the passage where Jesus Christ is on the cross. And I will provide a few different translations of verse 30.
"When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." (KJV)
"When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit." (NIV)
"When Jesus had tasted it, he said, “It is finished!” Then he bowed his head and released his spirit." (NLT)
From what I have read and studied, it never mentions anything about the spirit, the Christ, the God, dying. It says It was released, or gave up, and to me I can not read and comprehend that as dying, but I take it as it was freed from Jesus, the body.
This is my take, and I see it very clearly this way when I go back to the Word.
This is quite the tug of war we got going here but I still feel like I need to pull.
"Then Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?" And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One (Jesus) who is to be BORN will be called the Son of God." Luke 1:34-35
Now, how can there be any argument that the so-called "Christ" part of Jesus wasn't born? Jesus Christ is referred to here as the Holy ONE (emphasis on "one") who is to be BORN.
Jesus Christ was born just like you and me. The only difference is that Jesus was born perfect. Perfect because He was begotten of God not man. Therefore, Jesus wasn't born under the curse of Adam's sin. Jesus is the Son of God which is what kept Him from the curse of sin and is the reason He was perfect. That seems to make the most sense as to why He was to be born of a virgin in the first place.
So Jesus was different in the respect that He was conceived apart from the curse of sin. However, He was born physically in the exact same way that we are born today. If He was born the same as us then who's to say that He didn't die the same as we die? We shouldn't let the "giving up His spirit" confuse us too much. This is just another way of saying that He did in fact die. Now why say it in this way you might ask? Because Jesus made it very clear that He was the One willingly giving up His life as opposed to having His life taken from Him. So when we read of Jesus' death as "giving up His spirit", we are reminded that Jesus willingly choose to die.
Now of course the spirit doesn't die as the body does. That is true of all of us, not just Jesus. When we die, our spirits will live on and we will be given resurrection bodies (another discussion for another time).
I'll conclude with this question/thought. Jesus was the perfect Passover Lamb. How could the perfect Passover Lamb be the perfect sacrifice if He didn't actually die. Would a sacrifice that doesn't fully die be an efficient sacrifice for all of the world's sin?
-TEvans
Very well done Terry. I couldn't have said it better myself...So I won't.
Great response! I think you have a spiritual gift of teaching, but also a natural gift to turn on a inside fastball. Keep doing both.
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