If you have never even heard of this number and don't know any history of it check out Rev 14: 1-5.
The spin that Jehovah's Witnesses put on this number started with a man named Charles Russell. As a teenager he hated the church's views on hell and the Trinity and found them unreasonable. His thought led him to Adventists who assured him of no eternal punishment and his faith in the Scriptures was restored (all be it, wrong). By the time he was 18, he had his own bible studies going and was taking the Adventists set date 1874 for the end of the world and ran with it. When that date came and went he pushed it back to 1914. He kept setting new dates as they came and went all while stating that only 144,000 people on earth would make it to heaven. Soon his congregation grew and he saw that he was going to have much more followers than 144K , so what was he to do? He then announced that everyone who had become a JW before 1935 would go to heaven (the "little flock"), while everyone who became a JW after 35' would be among the "great crowd" who would not go to heaven but could look forward to living on Earth in a new paradise after Armageddon and the Millennium.
I guess the point of this is that yes the bible is confusing at times and definitely hard to believe. So, what some weak at heart or stubborn in power will do is take what they like about it and run with it. Or, take what they don't understand and change it to help put their mind at ease. I think we do that on a much lower scale, but we do it just the same. No, we don't get a cult following but we do sometimes pick and choose parts of the bible that make us warm and fuzzy and forget to look at the dirty tough pages sometimes.
I would really like to hear what, if any, things or theories that you have heard about this number before I rip off a super long post that most won't read through. Again, I apologize for the delay and didn't mean to step on Jules' Tuesday toes. Won't happen again.
ONE
Ty
p.s. Congrats to Terry and his wife Tanner on the birth of their healthy perfect miracle today. I won't take any more thunder than that from him if he wanted to bring it everyone in his own way on here.
12 comments:
I have heard that the 144,000 are Jewish evangelists who see the rapture and realize that they missed the boat. They repent and are saved to mount up as the evangelistic army that preaches to the world to receive Christ and not the mark (lojack?)of the beast. Pretty cool topic to bring up Tyler, I am looking forward to hearing more.
Tyler,
Who have you heard that the Harlot is in chapter 17. Rev 17:1-4 "Judgment of the great harlot...the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned in gold and precious stones." The Catholic Church? The catholic church is the wealthiest and most prosperous church ever and can't you just imagine all their uneducated believers from Ireland, Spain, Rome, etc. all mounting up together with the Antichrist. Just to be slapped in the face when they give him their full allegiance. Are you seeing that Iran has to be dealt with here soon by Israel due to that Satelite launch? I'm having a crazy day, the time is coming soon.
I had a talk with a friend of mine named Charles Cooper this week. He is the writer of several books and is one of the smartest biblical people i have ever known or heard about even. He said that we should not get too involved with trying to form hypotheses of things that arent scripturally there. but admitted that it can be fun to do so. He did offer this though...he said there were actually 14 tribes only 12 are listed. 12,000 from each tribe. One of the tribes..the tribe of Dan or the Danites arent listed. This tribe has been missing since the time of Jesus. Just recently the tribe of Dan has popped up and moved back to Israel. they are orthodox Jews that migrated to China during one of the wars and then came to reside in India. so, they look like chinese people, but live in India and are full blown orthodox jews. and now they have reappeared in Israel. I thought that was pretty neat.
i also asked him about the two witnesses left on Earth and he apparently had been asked that before. He acknowledged that enoch and elijah would be the most obvious choices but said that he believes that they are not the ones. He believes there will be two prophets...nobody that has resided on Earth before, that is all. just two prophets...not elijah or moses or enoch. But i admit...i was diggin the enoch and elijah theory myself.
Quick note on the twelve tribes. I don't want to get too elaborate on this topic so I'll just throw some quick points out there and leave them open for any discussion. According to the Genesis account, there are only 12 "original" tribes which were the descendants of each of Jacob's (Israel's) 12 sons. Jacob's 12 sons were;
1. Reuben
2. Simeon
3. Levi
4. Judah
5. Issachar
6. Zebulun
7. Joseph
8. Benjamin
9. Dan
10. Naphtali
11. Gad
12. Asher
These were the original 12 tribes of Israel and each was alloted territory except the tribe of Levi. The Levites were in charge of ceremonial responsibilities and the ark of the covenant. Therefore they worked directly for the Lord and relied on the other 11 tribes to provide for their daily needs. It was a type of socialist society in a way. Anyway, if you want to make an argument that there were 14 then you would probably be including the two sons of Joseph (Ephraim and Manasseh) as two additional tribes. This doesn't exactly work though because while these two eventually were considered tribes, they simply took the place of the tribe of Joseph. That would now give us 13 and since the Levites were not alloted land then they necessarily didn't have to be considered as a tribe since they had no identity of their own. The Levites were spread out throughout the other tribes that were alloted territory. Therefore if you take Joseph's two sons and make them two additional tribes you can still argue that there was only 12 tribes or you can just argue that these two additional tribes are just branches of the tribe of Joseph and still have 12. To finish this off, After King Solomon, the United monarchy of Israel falls apart and divides into the Southern Kingdom (Judah) and the Northern Kingdom (Israel). Here is how the tribes were divided at the time of the national split;
Southern Kingdom
1. Judah
2. Benjamin
3. Simeon
* and some Levites scattered througout
Northern Kingdom
4. Zebulun
5. Issachar
6. Asher
7. Naphtali
8. Dan
9. Menasseh
10. Ephraim
11. Reuben
12. Gad
* and some Levites scattered throughout
Therefore, I can see where things can get confusing as we read through the history of Israel but the Bible is clear in determining 12 tribes throughout the Old Testament. Fourteen is not an option and actually I think 13 would be a much better argument than 14. Ok, anybody want to add anything?
-TEvans
PS - waino, you said that the tribe of Dan isn't listed? Dan is listed in every list of the tribes in the Old Testament. Dan was one of Jacob's sons. I could be misinterpreting what you were trying to say so call me out if I did.
Jules,
Very interesting. I could get into some of my conspiracy government stuff on the catholic church, but I don't think that is helpful.
In chapter 17 it is referring to the final world religion that is established by the antichrist. Chapter 17 talks about the spiritual side and religious side of the NWO, but when you read on to 18 you see that this final world religion ruled by Satan through the antichrist is a military, economic, and political machine and it is very real. The Catholic Church will be gone by this point, and the deception of the final world religion will be at its culmination. Like you said in a post earlier about human beings innate need to worship. We all are born with that desire, and only finally feel fully satisfied when we find the Lord.
Waino, my point about bringing up the 144,000 was to show what happens when people's egos get in the way and they think they have all the answers. That is why I brought up Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormonism and where they have taken interpretations of the Bible to wrong turns. I find the 144,000 (and the book of Revelations in general) to be a very tough read and highly confusing at times. So, I didn't want to bring up hypotheses of things that aren't scripturally there. I just wanted to discuss this very real number that has been confusing to me and open a forum.
that is also an interesting viewpoint on the witnesses. I never thought of that angle.
Also, can you ask Charles to clarify what he meant about the tribe of Dan not being listed and/or lost since Jesus' time? Sounds like a very concrete theory that he has by taking it all the way to present day India. I would love to hear a little more about this topic.
sorry, should have been more clear. the tribe of dan is not listed on the revelation 7 list. I do not have an in-depth feel for the tribes myself. Charles and I had a long talk of them. I'll email him and get to the bottom of this one so he can clear it up for me too. i was there and it was hard to follow. He has dedicated the last 17 years to prophesy so i'm sure he's got some concrete for us. when he responds i'll post it on here.
ps...terry, congrats on your sons birth. did you name him after asher allen the georgia db or after the tribe in rev?
Here is charles coopers response. i emailed him our conversation, and terry's message. i like his point here and look forward to hearing responses from this. sorry i didn't write more clearly before.
his response:
Technically speaking speaking, your basic chronology is correct. Theoriginal 12 tribes were as you stated above. After Joseph sojourn inEgypt God took his two sons as a substitute for Levi with respect toland ownership. The sons of Joseph, Ephraim and Manasseh werelegitimate inheritors of land. In fact, Mahasseh got land on bothsides of the Jordan River. This confirms that God granted 13 landgrants. The land grants were unique and eternal. It is on this basisthat one can legitimately speak of Israel having 14 sons. Joseph's twosons were adopted legitimately which is why they were able to receiveland grants. It is legitimate to speak of Israel having 14 sons with respect toland inheritance. This is confirmed in Revelation 7. 12 tribes arenamed, but Dan and Ephraim are not in the list. Now Dan is alegitimate son. Ephraim was adopted. In the list given in Revelation7, Joseph and his son, Manasseh are named. Now if Manasseh and Ephraimwere substitutes for Joseph, then Joseph should not be named in thelist in Revelation 7 in as much as Joseph name is given. This provesthat Manasseh and Ephraim were not mere substitutes, but adopted sonswho could inherit land as legitimate sons. This proves that Israel canbe spoken of as having 14 sons who had the right to inherit land.
Ok, here's the problem I have with saying there were 14 tribes. The Bible is too clear on there only being 12 and therefore I completely disagree on the 14 tribe theory. Let's first turn to Numbers 34:13-28 where the Promised Land is being divided amongst 12 tribes. The 12 mentioned in Numbers are as follows:
1. Reuben (v. 14)
2. Gad (v. 14)
3. Manasseh (v. 14; v. 23)***
4. Judah (v. 19)
5. Simeon (v. 20)
6. Benjamin (v. 21)
7. Dan (v. 22)
8. Ephraim (v. 24)***
9. Zebulun (v. 25)
10. Issachar (v. 26)
11. Asher (v. 27)
12. Naphtali (v. 28)
*** I put stars by the tribes of Manasseh and Ephraim because they were considered half tribes for obvious reasons. They were the sons of Joseph and therefore divided Joseph's land inheritance. Numbers 34:14 clearly defines Manasseh as a half tribe. Numbers 34:23 clearly explains that Manasseh and Ephraim split Joseph's inheritance.
So what about the Levites? Well lets keep reading our Bibles. Numbers 35:1-5 clears this up for us. "Command the children of Israel that they give the Levites cities to dwell in from the inheritance of their possession, and you shall also give the Levites common-land around the cities". Again, the Word of God is so clear that the Levites didn't have land of their own but were given properties to dwell in from each of the other tribes.
Now, about the list in Revelations. I can't tell you exactly why John chose to leave out Dan and Ephraim. Perhaps when he mentions the tribe of Joseph he is referring to Ephraim since previous scripture has been clear on that relationship. One thing to remember about Revelations is that it is written in prophetic language so things aren't always what they seem. There very well could be a deeper symbology behind the list John gives us. However, if you are concerned about Dan being left out then have no fear the book of Ezekiel is here. Ezekiel 48 is also a prophecy on the restoration of Israel and it lists 12 tribes with land grants. They are:
1. Dan
2. Asher
3. Naphtali
4. Manasseh
5. Ephraim
6. Reuben
7. Judah
8. Benjamin
9. Simeon
10. Issachar
11. Zebulun
12. Gad
Ezekiel mentions the Levites living in the Holy District (more on that in Ezekiel 45:1-8). Think of that as the Washington DC of Israel. The United States has 50 alloted states and then Washington DC as a separate district. Israel has the 12 alloted territories of the tribes and then the Holy District where the Levites may live.
To conclude, I will repeat something that I have said before. On things we don't clearly understand we must let scripture explain scripture. Nowhere in scripture is there support for 14 tribes. Everywhere there is support for 12. We can't take one section from the book of Revelations that we don't completely understand and make up theories that aren't backed by God's Word.
-TEvans
Perhaps Dan isn't mentioned in the 144,000 because they aren't redeemed right away based on hardened hearts? Perhaps they are saved by grace later on account of the 144,000? We can go many different ways with the Revelations list but we cannot go ways that do not harmonize with the rest of God's Word.
Lets remember that this topic isn't one that concerns our salvation and is a theological issue rather than a faith issue. Satan likes to divide groups based on theological issues so let's not let that happen here. How do you think we got so many denominations in the church? Denominations are basically the church divided which is a success for Satan. Most of these divisions are based on petty theological and ritual issues that are completely good for nothing. Just wanted to raise awareness real quick of evil while we discuss theological issues.
-TEvans
what??...
hmmm...hard for me to look at mr cooper and tell him that he has no biblical reason for what he believes. the man has more knowledge of the bible than almost anyone on earth. now, i will admit that some of the smartest, most well read, biblical apologetics have their differences on some major issues. such as pre-destination and post or pre-trib rapture. To simply say that he has "made up" these theories is a little bold i believe. I will leave it at that and look forward to many more discussions to get us thinking deeply, while knowing that salvation is not the problem.
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